Elektron-Users

kuniklo wrote:
I'm sure all the drum models in the SPS-1 are much less predictable computationally and harder to deliver on exact intervals. It's the same reason computer sequencers start to fall apart when they're running too many plugins and effects at once but the variations aren't as extreme.

The Quasimidi Polymorph does this. Busy sequences will make you seasick.

The Quasimidi Polymorph does this. Busy sequences will make you seasick.

Likewise the E-Mu Command Stations and (I've heard) the Roland MC- grooveboxes.

dreg wrote:
I used Atari ste/notator for at least 10+ years and pushed pulled tracks to compensate for the midi slop of the things it was driving.
So I think I have a good grasp on this tight timing issue and it still won't make an average song "Blow your head off" sorry don't get or dig all this tech details as you only notice it after listening to something over and over and over or scoping it.

Again all this talk of mpc 3k being the one and only is bs, there heaps and heaps of tracks I and many others like and they groove like hell with out an mpc or an mc4 or an atari.

just try to finish a song is my take :-o

Dreg - I'm not debating the fact that a good song can be made with even a comb and a piece of tissue paper - it's important I think however, to separate these two issues - creative/technical for the purpose of this thread. Again I use the Mobius/MC-4 example: We spent many hours moving and shifting notes around, changing the analogue synth ADSR settings to get the Mobius sequencer feel right in a 16th note arpeggio in a track we were working on. This might be fun in a geeky techno sort of way but its counter productive to the creative process. Those 3 hours could have been better spent when really all we were doing was manually compensating for a shitty clock inside the Mobius. By contrast - the same sequence punched into an MC-4B is done, finished, nailed, and totally funky in 60 seconds. You dance around the room and move on to the next thing you want to add. Simple and far more creatively productive. The same goes for drums - in my work I see people every day programming beats in software and average hardware and they spend all their time moving things backward and forwards looking for the groove. If I punch an 8th note Kick/Snr/Hat hard-quantised pattern in my 3K - it?s all over in 60 seconds. Rock solid. Move on to the next thing. No moving shit around to compensate for rough clock. And if I want swing - bang - one button - game over. I'm not saying the 3K is the only way to make music. I am saying having a tight sequencer clock makes creating music more rewarding, more interactive and far less nerdy. And the reason I keep using the 3K as an example is because I have one and it is one of the only boxes in recent years that does the trick and believe me when I say I have tried them all! I want the sounds and features in my MD SPS-1 to have that same 'Snap, Crackle and Pop'. And in 2007 that should be mandatory for any half decent sequencer let alone one that is as expensive and as well regarded as the Elektron surely?

Regards - David
www.innerclocksystems.com

Dreg wrote....

just try to finish a song is my take :-o

In all the time you spent moving stuff around to get timing right in one song you could have probably finished a whole album if the gear was better designed (clock/sync-wise) in the first place.

Regards - David
www.innerclocksystems.com

Toni wrote:
I find this thread very interesting and I'll add my little counter-voice (not that it means to anybody anyway).


Ok, all the kidding aside. I'm not bitching anyone. a few serious lines after all this writing. I took the change. I really listened the quarters on 120 bpm and I think innerclock is on to something here. If you are careful enough, you _can hear_ it. Ok, maybe the hear is wrong word, put you can _definitely_ sense it if you listening the recorded one with the corrected one. It's like you feel more confident to dance. Inspired by this, I took my mpc3000 out of closet and did some sequencing. This _definitely_ proves it: I can hear it from the mpc also! It's not perfect; just like innerlock measured, there is a very little drift going on (maybe just a fraction of ms). Phew and fuck. I can _definitely_ see of rather hear, how this drifting of mpc could endanger my groove. We need the perfect clock! I know some of you might think this as a question of taste, but you've got to trust me: if you would hear the corrected version, you head will blow up!

ps. nevermind the way you feel, you have got to see this as an act of love.

Hi Toni - your comments and testing are always welcome and indeed important - and thank You! There is a difference and it shouldn't be optional in 2007. People are totally OK spending a fortune getting Word Clock tight for reducing Digital Audio jitter (Apogee/Prism etc). Sequencer manufacturers need to apply the same degree of interest and quality control in getting Tempo/Event/Clock stability to at least the same benchmark - if not better than a ten year old MPC3K or a 25 year old MC-4B.

No-one with half a brain these days disputes that tighter Word Clock accuracy means a better audio recording. Why is it then, in the area of rhythmic/tempo/event clocking which is equally if not more important (A shitty groove captured by an Apogee A/D is still a shitty groove even if it sounds special after all!) than Word Clock jitter - we find resistance to the idea of improving it? And worse - people using these tools write off any notion that these numbers actually mean anything and are nothing more than a fanatical obsession for control?

Best regards - David

Problem is 99.9% of the gear people are using has this "shitty clock" and its only making people feel shitty about their gear/music.

If Elektron ain't doing it then no one else is and they claim solid internal timing in their publicity.

So its a mute point in the end cause as you say its only good on a 1 10 and 1 30 year old kit plus a few other bits, no manufacturer sees it as a problem and bit of noise from here won't change it.
And when I talk about Kraftwerk sure they used analog seqs BUT it(their early stuff) was recorded on tape, with its inherent wow and flutter

Which is why I get back to, just play the damm things and enjoy, if I could write "Computer World" I'd be pulling myself around the block.

I'm not trying to dis your approach or integrity on this subject as you no doubt know your stuff.

Guess it depends on your background, I started with sound design, then to synth pop then to gear geeking and now twirl btw them.

Cheers :hammer:

Hey Dreg - yeah, I know it - and I've spent a small fortune on gear over the years with shit timing which I guess is why I'm so vocal about sorting it out. I bought Computer World in my late teens and many other records with the same feel over the years. In my early days of my own sequencing it drove me nuts why the best computers and hardware I could afford didn't do Kraftwerk any justice. I asked people, retail - there was no web back then - no straight answers. Then I was fortunate enough to work on a studio session that used analogue modular synths driven by voltage stepped sequencers synced to tape via a Sync Pilot Pulse Tone generated by the sequencer itself. The Wow and Flutter means nothing because everything you track to tape FOLLOWS THE SAME WOW AND FLUTTER EVERY PASS. Revelation and horror at the same time. Why did I have to go back 20 years to get that? What the hell went wrong in all that time? Did we all forget what tight sequencing actually sounds like? Did we all think it was a happy accident in 1978? I don't want anyone to feel shitty - in all honesty they probably feel shitty anyway if they compare their stuff with Computer World - worse if you don't know why or how to fix it. What I am trying to do is wake people up to the fact that we don't have to put up with it - there is a concrete reason behind all this and if we don't make a noise, however small it may be - it will only get worse. I know Elektron give a shit - that?s why I bought an SPS-1. I'm giving them stick because I want the SPS-1 to be the best Drum Sequencer in the world and to be that it has to sort out the slop and if anyone can lead the way - it's these guys.

Best as always - David
www.innerclocksystems.com

dreg wrote:

Which is why I get back to, just play the damm things and enjoy, if I could write "Computer World" I'd be pulling myself around the block.


Hey again - had a final thought after reading your post - this may get me knee-capped but it's worth saying all the same - I'm not taking anything away from the Kraftwerk genius - both is skill, scope and being a million years ahead of the music world at the time - BUT - they had one thing going for them that is a cornerstone of their sound overall and that the vast majority of us do not have access to anymore - super tight clock for sequencing duties.

Kraftwerk rocks just as hard now as it did then because it's ROCK SOLID.

Regards - David.

so stuff made completely in software has a 100% steady clock? So by your logic that stuff should "groove" better.

innerclock wrote:
that it has to sort out the slop and if anyone can lead the way - it's these guys.

Best as always - David
www.innerclocksystems.com


come on... elektron makes nice freaky machines but in relation to others they are not that ahead.. its faster than programming a nordmodular or reaktor or max msp...but its the same world of sounds...

so wehn you want to go for tight timing i suggest that you have a look to the more professional eqipment of the above mentioned branches...

Regarding product design elektron shines most on a optical side..
all the user interface design is not really 100% thought thru..
its not bad also..but many inconsistencys.. unlogical things... like sharing
pattern/song button with the global setup and kit with songsetup...
The songmode nobody uses i know is the only direkt acces function on the whole machine... ... The patern/sample /kit safe operations are deeply quirky..a machine wher you constantly loose work..and the most inferior sound engine timing on the market...

THe MD is a percussion syntheziser... its great for that..but its not the very best drum machine...

If you after rocksolid timing you should work DAW internal...the mixup of systems allways causes problems..midiclocking works with an atari or mpc but not with modern DAW?s...

Logic for example fucked the good OSX timing...its as bad as it was regarding clockjitter in the 90?s... dont ask me why...
inbetween it was fine..the clock very precise..but now we have 1,5 ms again...

So its actually not the trend to deliver timing precission to the hardware world from DAW side....why should equipment that is supposed to run as slave have a better timing than the external clock prvides...

Best is to give up on hardware and work only wih the computer ..that the message that is in this development

Btw: i just reformed my studio to the state of mid 90?s...

we have an akai harddiskrecorder as timecode master and an atari that runs synced with smpte and delivers the midiclock...#
#
the laptop is alo in smpte sync and wordclock synced to the harddiskrecorder...

so all work is done in the harddiskrecorder and the laptop just integrated as dubber and editor...

We will see how that works out...
i am not willing to be forced to do everything on a computer..that kills at least my creativity...

What is probaly the plan behind this timing conspiracy