Elektron-Users

Hey Rudebop - just saw your last post - you have an MPC so you know how it sounds already!

Best - David.

Hey Rudebop - my only point of contention (and it's a personal one I know) from your earlier post about the MD SPS-1 being unique because it adds a 'human' factor. Two points about this I feel strongly about - 1. If the seemingly proven SPS-1/MD 'Human' feel/step 'push-pull' was a very deliberate feature inclusion on Elektron's part I could accept that just so long as they gave me the option to switch it off. The fact that it is not deliberate and more down to the code crunchers not keeping things tight is where I have issue. 2. If I really want 'human' feel in my sequencing then as the human being programming the beats - I think any 'human-ness' in the groove should only come from me. Not from any machine and certainly not in a way that I have no control over. Again - I feel this lets manufacturers and designers off the hook when it comes to getting timing right. I know wrist watches are a poor analogy and some are better at keeping time than others of course - but you wouldn't go out of your way to buy a watch that kept poor time - what would be the point? Get a good watch that keeps accurate time and you choose to be early or late to your appointments if you want to be human..... See my point?

Regards - David.

I don't think it's any accident that an MPC can be so tight. All it's really doing is dumping sample data out at regular intervals, so the computational requirements are predictable and constant. I'm sure all the drum models in the SPS-1 are much less predictable computationally and harder to deliver on exact intervals. It's the same reason computer sequencers start to fall apart when they're running too many plugins and effects at once but the variations aren't as extreme.

Hi Kuniklo - I see your point but again - ROM sound based sequencers and drum machines are really no different to samplers - they still have to trigger a sound/voice at a specific grid/tick count and there are many of these with crap voice/event performance believe me. And even if the SPS-1 is generating/synthesizing voices in real-time - with the dedicated high speed DUAL DSP and all the other available hardware at their disposal in 2004 - a well written event scheduling/buffer design would make certain voices fired on perfect time. And again - in 2004 - if you are designing/manufacturing a world class drum machine - regardless of the fancy voice modeling and DSP synthesis you build into it - if compromises in the OS mean it can't fire on time properly and more significantly if it falls behind on much earlier products and designs then it needs to be addressed - don?t let 'em off the hook!

Regards - David

Here you can find the recording used for my timing test:

www.groundloops.com/test/MPCvsMDUW_Timing_Test.wav

The first part is the MPC, the second part is the MDUW.
If you open it in SF you'll be able to see all the markers already in place.

Interesting thread.

Some additional observations:

1. Myself and Tarekith have both observed agravation of arpegiator timing issues with a Virus TI (in old TI OS versions) when using an MD as the master clock.

2. I have observed issues which my V-synth when using it as a master clock - v-synth seems to have a bug which can sometimes make it incredably sensitive to clock jitter with certain fx in use - as evidenced by odd squeaks at times.

3. Using MD as master clock, push some of the trigger buttons. To make this extreme, simply run you finger quickly along the trigger buttons - this will causee a massive and very audiable slow down of the MD tempo and all clock slaved devices.


MIDI itself is a very hit an miss mechanism for syncing synths - you are allways going to get jitters due to other traffic on the cable that will be upto the length of the otehr message that is contending for the clock message. Typically this works out around 1ms or so, or 0.1 ms with the MD in turbo mode. I have regular observed far higher level for jitter from the MD, especally around pushing buttons on it.

Also I have tried to use it from live in pattern gate mode - this can only be made to work reliably by advancing the gate tracks. Obvious thought - just means that live is not properly syncing notes with clock, or midi interface lag etc. MIDI interface lag is ruled out by clock and notes going along same data path. Live is not ruled out, but I dont consider it a highly likely culprit as 8 otehr synths mange to trigger arps and switch arp note patterns perfectly well under identical circumstances.

The MD is a wonderful bit of kit, but it isnt perfect, its clocks are flawed relative to most other gear I have, but none the less for convenience I still use it as my master clock and live with its flaws. These flaws are a contributing factor is my regular thoughts about ditching the MD completely and buying an MPC2500 instead... I know different machines different style of use etc, but it would probably do the job and Im sure I would adapt

DAW/computers are not perfect, but most sample clocks are very good references on a decent quality audio i/o card - if they werent, all of our recording would sound like shit for reasons other than dubious musical skills

Also some DAW can be worse than others - Cubase 4.0, 4.01 have been particular bad, I havnt tried tests on midi in 4.02 and 4.03 yet. Live 6.0.3 isnt perfect either.

innerclock wrote:
Hey Rudebop - my only point of contention (and it's a personal one I know) from your earlier post about the MD SPS-1 being unique because it adds a 'human' factor.
Regards - David.

this was a slightly cynical statement...of cause such a thing should be an option..
but it also would be necessary to have individual track delays ...the global menu would be a good place for that...

I find this thread very interesting and I'll add my little counter-voice (not that it means to anybody anyway).

The sample accurate stomping seems to be new sacred gate to perfect music; if you don't enter into it, you will never see the light of the truth. If the SPS would be more precise, it would blow my head off. Right. Sounds familiar in the odd way, doesn't it. Well, we have all heard it thousands times before (by the way, kvr is great place to find them). All this talk of clock precision, it's getting into areas of mystical speak. I love it.

Some months ago, it was analog summing that made all the differences between the good and pro mix (can you hear that soundfield depth). Before that, the tape was only way to truly record magnicifiant stuff (that harmonic distortion and transient response). You are not getting there (where ever you are going), because you haven't found _the one truth behind them all_. Forget the monster-cables and cosmic radiation shielded environment, here it comes.

Precision of the internal clock is the thing. Real music works with the clock. If the song doesn't work, it's probably because the clock of the sequencer is floating around; you are losing the funkiness by 2ms. Or your inner clock is out of rhythm. You can't hear it (because you haven't trained yourself into it), but that's the reason. Actually you cannot hear it at all, but you can only sense it (are you sensing it now?).

Now the MD clock. It has a special push/pull character, that makes MD so funky machine. It is really something you cannot have from any other machine. If you did suspect that MD has something 'extra' that other machines don't have, congratulations: you are starting to hear the subtle microtiming that surrounds us and for some of us it is perhaps a never-achievable state. For most of us, it is only the dark hours of ever lasting night, where we might once hear it, but never realize of the true meaning of it. But once you conquer it, you will be doing astonishing things with it. You will never hear world same way again.

What we are actually seeing here is reproduction of the MPC-mysticism. It is a special machine, that has some never-to-be-fully-understanded features that actually separates the successfull artist from unsuccesful. It cannot be rationalized or fully measured, it's more like sacred coincident that has perhaps happened in the Akai factories by how knows for what reasons. Take something like MPC-1000; utter shit. They can't reproduce the original magic. The originals had special flavour on ad/da -converters and don't even get me started with the swing (there have been some reproduction attemps with the software, but they don't have _the feel_; it's something very special, way beyond the measurable world). Same way as the funkyness of 808 (it has nothing to do with the fact that you have been teached to see 808 in a very special light. You are not seeing your preconceptions).

MPC-mysticism takes the incredients of artificial hiphop-idol myth and glues it into the machine. It's all about the machine; you cannot make some of the best stuff without MPC (and you know it!)

But the MPC-mysticism isn't the only mystic sect here, there is also the Elektron-mysticism. These machines have, how should I put it, something very special about them. Use these machines and your mind will open up like a flower. And the quality; they are virtually perfect. No, I don't mean good or hi-quality, they are _perfect_, putting end for searching the right gear in the wonderland of consumerism. Finally we have come to the end of history of music machines. We are feeling very pioneer, because only the most progressive minds know it (such as Autechre).

Now what to trust in this fantasized world? Monster cables maybe? Why not trust your own ears and intuition? It's not so bad option really. It's the only partner you can have true conversation with (and sometimes prove wrong).

Ok, all the kidding aside. I'm not bitching anyone. a few serious lines after all this writing. I took the change. I really listened the quarters on 120 bpm and I think innerclock is on to something here. If you are careful enough, you _can hear_ it. Ok, maybe the hear is wrong word, put you can _defineatly_ sense it if you listening the recorded one with the corrected one. It's like you feel more confident to dance. Inspired by this, I took my mpc3000 out of closet and did some sequencing. This _defineatly_ proves it: I can hear it from the mpc also! It's not perfect; just like innerlock measured, there is a very little drift going on (maybe just a fraction of ms). Phew and fuck. I can _defineatly_ see of rather hear, how this drifting of mpc could endanger my groove. We need the perfect clock! I know some of you might think this as a question of taste, but you've got to trust me: if you would hear the corrected version, you head will blow up!

ps. nevermind the way you feel, you have got to see this as an act of love.

Khazul wrote:
Interesting thread.

Some additional observations:

3. Using MD as master clock, push some of the trigger buttons. To make this extreme, simply run you finger quickly along the trigger buttons - this will causee a massive and very audiable slow down of the MD tempo and all clock slaved devices.




Really? that would explain some issues i had live with ableton live running out of sync with the MD as master... i have to test that.. because thats cant be tollerated..

a machine that is doing that cant be used a s clockmaster and has nothing like a solid clock...solid means it satys stable independent from what you do with the machine... a stable clock is ont that holds the tempo..but solid means reliable...
I investigate

I used Atari ste/notator for at least 10+ years and pushed pulled tracks to compensate for the midi slop of the things it was driving.
So I think I have a good grasp on this tight timing issue and it still won't make an average song "Blow your head off" sorry don't get or dig all this tech details as you only notice it after listening to something over and over and over or scoping it.

Again all this talk of mpc 3k being the one and only is bs, there heaps and heaps of tracks I and many others like and they groove like h_ll with out an mpc or an mc4 or an atari.

just try to finish a song is my take :-o