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TOPIC: Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!!
#106552
jdn
King Koopa
Posts: 217
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
UPDATE: most of what I've written in this post is confused. Check out my later post down in the thread... I think I've figured this out better now....

I think Veet's diagram is correct, except possibly the knee knob direction.

What's really weird is the attack and decay settings (127 is fast) are the opposite of what was quoted by the Elektron email that Tarekith just posted.

But after listening to what the comp is doing, and (to check my head) running test signals through the compressor and back into my DAW, I agree that 127 seems like 'fast' action.

EG: To get a hard pumping sound, play a pattern with a hard 4/4 kick and plenty of long-decay stuff playing during the non-downbeats. Set THRSH low-ish and RATIO above 30 (which I agree sounds like about the max ratio strangely). If you set attack to 127 and tune the release somewhere between 0 and 64, you get a really strong "pump" as the compressor releases slowly. If you want more snap from the kick, dial attack back from 127 to a slower attack mode.

What can get confusing about this, especially when trying to get analytical using pure sinewaves to test, looking at the waveform etc, is that a) this compressor seems to be very much a peak signal detector, so any transient spikes will cause it to clamp down. b) the GND-sin machines don't phase-init every time you trig, and you often get very loud spikes during the first cycle of a note. That's enough to signal the compressor to clamp down very hard -- but depending on your threshold that might only last through that initial transient spike. So a very high ATK setting can allow the compressor to *completely* gain reduce during that initial transient, and then release during the rest of the signal. If you have ATCK high and RELEASE low, then your note will have an attenuated start and then swell up as the compressor releases -- which can make the ATTACK knob seem like a release since you have to have a really high attack to get the gain reduction during the initial spike to make the slow release sound audible. Hope that makes sense to someone.

I'll post some images when I get some more time.

But doing listening tests on program material, it really does sound like high attack = fast and high release = fast.

Ironically, I took a closer look at the Dynamix on the MNM, and guess what -- it's completely different. Attack of 0 is a fast attack, release of 0 is a fast release, the ratio knob actually does something meaningful above 30, and there's a peak-rms dial for the detector function. That said, I couldn't get the release to do anything useful on the MNM compressor yet!

-j

PS: just mailed Elektron about this, and I'll post if I hear anything back.
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#106554
GYS
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Posts: 1829
Do dumb shit with glow sticks.
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Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
Thanks for yet more insight into this awesome/broken effect, Chakaharta.
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#106557
GYS
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Posts: 1829
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Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
I must also say...I love how the "once and for all" Dynamix settings thread is 7 pages long and going strong.
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#106570
Hammer Bro
Posts: 724
MD MKII 10th Anniversary Edition
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Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
GYS wrote:
I must also say...I love how the "once and for all" Dynamix settings thread is 7 pages long and going strong.

i have to agree that it's kind of funny...but...

i'm really happy with people's perseverance to understand this effect.

it shows a passion for these machines and what they can do.

i have made my contributions to this discussion before, but now even those are up in the air!


i watch this thread with intriguing interest.

peace
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#106571
GYS
Game & Watch
Posts: 1829
Do dumb shit with glow sticks.
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Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
johnathon doe wrote:

i watch this thread with intriguing interest.


Ha, me too! Every time I read a lengthy explanation, I can't wait to get home and try the latest and greatest way to use the compressor!
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#106583
Game & Watch
Posts: 1910
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
actuel wrote:
I want a tutorial video. Who's doing it

I thought about it

I posted some compressor graphics a while back and the graphics tell a different story than what HQ said. I love Elektron HQ - they have done a lot of great things on keeping the OS evergrowing - but the results don't seem to match up. But don't take my word for it, anyone can do my test - I posted all the details. All you need is a DAW. Chakaharta raises a good point about the GND-SIN and that's why I used GND-NOISE.
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#106884
jdn
King Koopa
Posts: 217
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
Arright, Veets was definitely right with the 1984 references ... things are backwards as far as I can tell too. It's even stranger than I'd imagined though, if it's doing what I think it is.

Let's just start with some reference images:


From top to bottom, that's:
* noise burst at low, high, and then low levels. i'm using that to test the compressor's time response. (it's just a GND-NS machine with a max decay, and p-locked VOL settings for the three steps, as well as a fourth "silent" trig at VOL 0 at the end to stop it)
* dynamix in "limiter" mode: ATCK 20, REL 0, TRHD 90, RTIO 127, KNEE 0, HP 0, OUTG 0, MIX 0. looks pretty flat. that's promising. this is also getting the threshold to affect only the "loud" part of the signal in the middle of the timeline.
* bring ATCK up up 127. this actually gives a slow release -- take a look at the ramp up after the middle "loud" section. the compressor is releasing its gain reduction slowly, so it takes a while to rise back up to normal level.
* bring REL up to 70 -- this has the effect of giving a slower attack to the compressor, visible by the overshoot at the beginning of the middle section. it doesn't really affect the release stage (visible in the ramp again).
* now things get weird: ATCK 0, REL 74 -- this has a medium attack and a medium release. WTF?
* ATCK back up to 127 -- no real difference
* REL 127 -- slower attack and release (the final segment has a reeealy long release ramp now)
* ATCK back to 0 -- no difference from the previous really.

OK, so what's going on here? Here's my best description of what I've seen:

File Attachment:
File Name: MD_dynamix.gif
File Size: 51923


* 0
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#106885
jdn
King Koopa
Posts: 217
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
Hrm, the bottom of my post got cut off and I can't edit that post anymore ....
Here's the description. You're probably going to need to check out the attached image since I went over the inline image size.

Attack and release are in fact reversed, and REL has a strange mode where it controls both the attack and release rates at the same time....

* REL between 0 and 72 controls attack time (higher = slower).
In this REL range, ATCK controls the release time (higher = slower).
Example: ATCK 127 REL 0 = fast attack limiter with slow release (which isn’t possible on the MNM Dynamix, BTW).

* Hard jump in behavior as REL goes from 72 -> 74 or back

* REL between 73 and 127
As best I can tell, REL controls attack and release time.
73 is fast, 127 is slow (for both)
ATCK doesn’t do anything when REL is in this range.

Other random notes:

* The HP in the Dynamix seems only run from like 20 Hz to 500 Hz or something like that. That’s why having it all the way up at 127 still results in lots of compression from program material.

* MIX 127 -> Dry (opposite of MNM Dynamix)

* RAT knob has most effect from 0 - 30 (it’s not as "perceptually" scaled as the MNM RAT knob)

* KNEE 0 = Hard, 127 = soft. A "soft" knee starts compression below the nominal threshold. Turning KNEE toward 0 should lower the amount of applied gain reduction.

* By default in an empty kit, slight compression is on because EQ gain is 127 (0 db), Dyn TRHD = 127 (0 db), RTIO = 127 (limiter), KNEE = 127 (soft knee = compression starts well below nominal threshold), HP = 127, ATCK = 127, REL=127, MIX = 0 (full wet compression)


Does any of this match what you all are seeing? I'm using OS 1.62 BTW....

Cheers.
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#106921
Game & Watch
Posts: 1910
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
That is pretty much what I was seeing except you did a more detailed look at the middle points. I only looked at the extremes and (wrongly again I suppose) assumed that the intermediate values were simple transitions from the extremes.

It's funny you mentioned 72-74 as an area where the behavior changes since on the older OS, 75 was the magic number where the compressor would "shriek". The shriek was this weird high-pitched distortion noise. All the old timers will remember this noise. IIRC putting Attack and Release both above 75 got rid of the shriek. I did some tests trying to figure out how this noise got generated. I remember trying to feed the compressor some pretty low (30-40 hz sine) material and some higher end material (100 hz) and the noise was the same no matter what. Supposedly some fast compressors can make noise with bass material as the compression is faster than the wavelength. I don't have the results from the tests but my recollection is that I couldn't see anything obviously compressed in the shriek. Also, I remember it was always the same frequency (eeek, eeek) no matter the Attack or Release settings, and then faded out once you got to 75 or so. I never quite could figure it out.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to test this independently. Two heads/tests are better than one.
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#106922
Game & Watch
Posts: 1910
Re:DYNAMIX SETTINGS Once And For All...Need Sticky!!! 13 Years, 4 Months ago
Oh BTW I have gotten that error before about including a picture and then not being able to edit the post. It's a forum bug I believe.
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