Elektron-Users

I think that probably 3 pages for this topic would have been more than enough if people like you didn't insist in dismissing our attempts to find out what was going with the MD timing, using every possible excuse and a childish, defensive attitude.

I mean, how many pages did we need only to convince some of you guys that the testing methods we were using were accurate enough for the purpose?

And why do you wanna close down the thread?

I'm sure many potential buyers would like to know about this kind of issues before buying a MD.

lcvl wrote:
I think that probably 3 pages for this topic would have been more than enough if people like you didn't insist in dismissing our attempts to find out what was going with the MD timing, using every possible excuse and a childish, defensive attitude.

I mean, how many pages did we need only to convince some of you guys that the testing methods we were using were accurate enough for the purpose?

And why do you wanna close down the thread?

I'm sure many potential buyers would like to know about this kind of issues before buying a MD.


Your ability to string together constructive post after constructive post leaves me speechless.

If you actually read my previous posts you would realise that the only thing I am dismissing is the need for 45 page long threads that do nothing constructive at all. If you read my previous post you would have noticed that I haven't suggested that anything be deleted or swept under the rug, but instead a simple neat announcement thread be sticky-ed to the top of the forum.

Yet you continually preach that your opinion needs to be respected? The childish, defensive attitude is yours not mine. You are the one failing to acknowledge any opinion other than your own. Why do I want to close this thread down? Because its redundant. The issue was brought to light, acknowledged by elektron and then dismissed by elektron. What purpose does this thread have that my suggestion doesn't provide? Do you want this thread to stay open for no other reason than because it could be considered a malicious attack at a company in an attempt to make them change something? You don't find it childish to yell "bs" when a company states that the timing in the MD was intentional? It certianly reveils how shallow your respect is for anyone with an opinion differing to your own, even the manufacturers and creators of these products.

Seriously, quit blowing hot air. Respect breeds respect. I certianly have an issue with the MnM's hanging midi notes, so much so that I even made an international collect call to Elektron to raise the issue. They acknowledged it and said they will look into it... but I guess you think I should start a complaint thread or the "hanging midi note doorknockers society".

Looking at david's two websites, he certianly has a passion for midi timing... or perhaps a hatred. If I were in his position as an employee of another company I would have stepped very lightly. I would have only confirmed the timing measurements (which he did, 42 pages ago) then raised the issue directly with elektron... because it is only elektron that can address the points being made. Instead his persistance gives this thread nothing but vicious overtones and connatations... But of course, given the degree of rationality you've displayed in some of your posts I don't expect you to agree. You just think that any post that disagrees with anything in this thread is childish and disrespectful :roll:

Munchen wrote:

Come on DLX - for you - hung Midi Notes is something you obviously find a serious issue and with that sort of expletive I assume you must have gone hard to get it resolved - I would expect that in anyone with a genuine and valid point and that is a good thing my man. For me I don't use the MD or MnM for Midi at all so I couldn't give a hoot about hung notes.

yeah absolutely. I took the issue up directly with Elektron... why? Because they are the only people who can find a remedy.

Now that is very important to me and Innerclock also obviously so why can't it be addressed or at least respected the same way?

And respect goes both ways. My opinion has already been called "weak", thats some respect I tell ya. The issue has been addressed, if you look at the first page you will see when elektron was made aware of it. What more needs to be addressed? Oh, thats right... a solution, but thats not going to come from this thread thats going to come from elektron.


Your comments about doing music to be happy and all is cool and I know where you are coming from but really man, bringing up real issues and genuine wish lists in gear we obviously all love is all about raising the bar and you can't shoot a brother for that, that just ain't fair. saying you would rather move on than get positively involved in fixing or improving some feature is just a dummy-spit and that way nothing gets improved.

I have no problem with issues being brought up. What positive envolvment can I do, or you or anyone outside of elektron do to improve the MD's timing in this thread? Is riding the backs of the guys at Elektron a positive thing? Is perhaps making a scene with dozens upon dozens of posts a positive thing? Is telling elektron that they are full of sh*t when they say the timing in the MD is intentional like they have done in this thread? Why does respect stop at those who share your opinion? Why is respect not extended to elektron staff who are creating and implementing a design that they want to sell, to use and to enjoy? Are they not forwarded any respect simply because you don't agree with a design decision that they made? Thats petty and childish.


Doesn't the 42 pages of dialogue at least distill down the truth, the method of measurement and the importance of the issue? If it got shit-canned at page one like you suggest(which it could very well have been if you had your way) I think a lot of us would still be in the dark about this and I would rather know than not know and that has to be worth something brother.

What truth? I never doubted any of David's measurements, and as mentioned on the first page Elektron never doubted any of david's measurements... so really, truth has zero to do with the pages that follow. The importance of the issue? Like the importance of any issue with elektron product? An issue that is important enough to make you pick up the phone or send an email to elektron yourself? It is that important to you right? If you didn't know would the problem exist? I am sure to many the problem doesn't exist, either after reading this thread or prior to it. They just kept on writing music, and good music at that.

i can see that sarcasm is lost on some of you.

here's the reality::

Threads should not, and will not be closed, just because certain people think they are 'lengthy and non-constructive'.

The idea that you should be able to lobby to shut down other people's conversations because you don't like them is crass, short-sighted, and downright offensive.

Fortunately, that's not how most internet forums (including this one) work.


Now, go try and impose your viewpoints somewhere else.



Next time you don't like what someone says, try sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'la la la, I can't hear you'. It's a better strategy then trying to censor free discussion, m'kay?

Dear DLX

- Every finding regarding the MD timing issue posted on this thread has been posted privately to Elektron support as well. In my personal case it's not the first time that I've helped them reproduce a few bugs I found in the OS. I'm glad if I can help them.

- Nobody has ever "yelled" around here, except the ones with the "shut the f*?k up and go make some music" attitude.

- Nobody has ever said that "Elektron are full of shit".

- I think we made clear, more than once, that all the time we've spent on these timing measurements and tests was 100% worth it because we love Elektron products.

- Elektron gave a partial explanation of the timing issue. They've not said anything yet about the fact that the MD shows the same kind of "lag" (up to 3 ms of delay) even when triggered from an external MIDI sequencer. IMO the discussion is still completely open on this front.

- Like many others, I don't stare at my MD all day long, pissed off because I can't make any music with it. I use it almost daily for my sound-design/programming work for several companies around the world. That's why I hope its timing will get improved: because I use it a lot as one of my favourite production tools in a professional environment.

- If you can't hear how poor timing negatively affects your music, the problem is yours, not ours.

rgmccaig wrote:

Next time you don't like what someone says, try sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'la la la, I can't hear you'. It's a better strategy then trying to censor free discussion, m'kay?

A free discussion? So people who have the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the MD's timing should be accused of being deaf in some way?

Its a great discussion when different opinions get replies like "you just don't get it" or "thats a completely different thing" or "thats not valid". It certianly aids a great discussion! You are just as active in killing any discussion, m'kay. If you don't like people expressing opinions that are different to yours, you can stick your own fingers in your ears.

for my sound-design/programming work for several companies around the world

many have been or are professional, proves nothing, point to your world class work if you are going to mention it!

except the ones with the "shut the f*?k up and go make some music" attitude.

miss quoting to suit your needs?

If you can't hear how poor timing negatively affects your music, the problem is yours

So lets clear this up YOU think every piece of music done on sequencers, not mpc3k etc has shit timing and you hear it?
Do you like any music?

THIS THREAD WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN STARTED OR LED ON A CURRENT ROLAND PRODUCT SITE!!! MV NATION anyone?

DISPUTE THAT FACT?

NOTHING POSITIVE HAS COME OUT OF THIS 46 PAGE THREAD.

DISPUTE THAT FACT?

no i don't wanna hear it, read it or smell it, cause it will stink.

The idea that you should be able to lobby to shut down other people's conversations because you don't like them is crass, short-sighted, and downright offensive.

How many boards you on? 1. Threads get closed on most sites when they become abusive, trollish, waste of bandwidth, WHEN THE THREAD HAS RUN ITS RACE. why am I explaining this?

All you defender of the realm have continued to slag, belittle, name call, or jump on anyone who says its BS and doesn't affect their music.
I know myself it doesn't affect my tunes and i'll defend that position and by some members own reasonings of free speech here I'm allowed to.

Quite funny really cause its such a
"pot calling" issue...
Go start your own board, troll this thread on other sites, this site is for Elektron users and lovers.
You guys have no idea how this rumor mongering could affect the sales of Elektron products even the company.

I'd prefer them to sell more and create other wonderful gear, but maybe I'm wrong? We could all buy roland stuff then hey?
NO they are absolutely GREAT WORLD CLASS PRODUCTS that shit on other gear

(please no I love my elek too but it got shit timing WE KNOW YOU THINK THAT)
I don't and your attacking it, I'm defending it.Remember?

Go on tell me how childish or shameful I'm being!
^^^
!!!
dickheads
now you can..!.,

lcvl wrote:
Dear DLX

- Every finding regarding the MD timing issue posted on this thread has been posted privately to Elektron support as well. In my personal case it's not the first time that I've helped them reproduce a few bugs I found in the OS. I'm glad if I can help them.

Good for you.


- Nobody has ever "yelled" around here, except the ones with the "shut the f*?k up and go make some music" attitude.

Thats a lie... plenty of brash, unproductive and narrow sighted comments have been made by everyone. David has even apologised for some of his less than productive comments.


- Nobody has ever said that "Elektron are full of shit".

Not in those words exactly. But there are several posts that suggest that Elektron are lying.


- I think we made clear, more than once, that all the time we've spent on these timing measurements and tests was 100% worth it because we love Elektron products.

That would be grand if 100% of that time was actually spent on trying to improve products. 90% of it looks like it was spent on childish name calling, or declaring that "our opinion should be respected" while another person's is tramped on.


- Elektron gave a partial explanation of the timing issue. They've not said anything yet about the fact that the MD shows the same kind of "lag" (up to 3 ms of delay) even when triggered from an external MIDI sequencer. IMO the discussion is still completely open on this front.

Have you actually thought to ask how much of the sequencer aspect of the MD's design is integrated with the sound engine itself? Because really, that would be the first step in determining if anything is still "completely open".


- Like many others, I don't stare at my MD all day long, pissed off because I can't make any music with it. I use it almost daily for my sound-design/programming work for several companies around the world. That's why I hope its timing will get improved: because I use it a lot as one of my favourite production tools in a professional environment.

Like I've said, I have no problem with that... but posting junk that says the people with opposing opinions are being childish or have bad attitudes then act in exactly the same way isn't going to fix anything. In fact, if anyone really had the desire to fix anything you'd think they'd stay strickly on the subject at hand instead of paying attention to the numerous side arguments... It hardly helps, in fact it does nothing but distract and dilute any point trying to be made. Like its been mentioned, if you don't like whats being said just put your fingers in your ears. Thats exactly why I think if David simply came and confirmed his measurements and took them to Elektron instead of religiously trying to pursuade everyone into thinking this is the biggest problem since the cuban missle crisis, this thread would have been much much more productive and probably wrapped up pages ago.


- If you can't hear how poor timing negatively affects your music, the problem is yours, not ours.

do you find the need to kill every constructive post with stupid and irrational comments? Really, the sentence should read "if your MD is negatively effecting your music, the problem is yours, not ours". It is you after all that is trying to change something. If you actually listened to some of the music posted on this site you'd realise its still making some absolutely top quality stuff... See, this is the biggest problem with your posts. You try and take the moral high ground yet try and make personal attacks at the same time. You are like that hot head you see in a club or music store. You know, the type of guy that as soon as you see him you turn around and walk away because he is only going to pollute what could be a good conversation with a bunch of self indulgent hot air.

The idea that you should be able to lobby to shut down other people's conversations because you don't like them is crass, short-sighted, and downright offensive.

How many boards you on? 1. Threads get closed on most sites when they become abusive, trollish, waste of bandwidth, WHEN THE THREAD HAS RUN ITS RACE. why am I explaining this?

Go start your own board, troll this thread on other sites, this site is for Elektron users and lovers.
You guys have no idea how this rumor mongering could affect the sales of Elektron products even the company.

I'd prefer them to sell more and create other wonderful gear, but maybe I'm wrong? We could all buy roland stuff then hey?
NO they are absolutely GREAT WORLD CLASS PRODUCTS that shit on other gear

(please no I love my elek too but it got shit timing WE KNOW YOU THINK THAT)
I don't and your attacking it, I'm defending it.Remember?

Go on tell me how childish or shameful I'm being!
^^^
!!!
dickheads
now you can..!.,


That was a revealing post, I can see that you would prefer an elektron-fanboy board where criticism/analysis of product performance is forbidden. I hope not everyone wishes this. Personally I think forums of that type are really lame.

This board is still quite young... so far its headed in the right direction imho and the owners take a good 'hands off' approach.

There was no rumor mongering on this thread, just some proven facts which several people validated and Elektron confirmed.


I don't mind anyone disagreeing with my opinions on this thread... I only mind when people get frustrated and fall back on complaining "shut down the thread". That's just noise.

So, getting back on topic, here's the unresolved question, to my mind::

-An Elektron rep. stated in an email response to one member (I believe) that the timing deviations were necessary results of the DSP architecture of the system (in particular, coordinating between the 2 processors)

-An Elektron rep. posted on some other forum, later quoted in this thread, that the timing characteristics were a purposeful attempt to give the sps a timing 'special feel' as found in certain other vintage drum machines


So, those statements seems a little at odds, don't they- how can they both be true?

Perhaps they can both be true in a sense- If they knew their design required a certain amount of jitter, they could have chosen the particular pattern of jitter to be what it is.

It is intriguing if they really think this pattern of jitter has musical/good qualities:: the pattern is kind of irregular- notes play dead steady for 4 or 5 beats, then one note comes off by 2ms, then back to steady.

The funny thing is that this pattern does not repeat in a bar-to-bar way. Usually when people think of 'timing groove' they think of a push-pull pattern that is aligned with the measure in a certain way. So I'm interested in learning more about how this type of randomness may be perceived as 'interesting'.

After all, we all have the ability to push/pull notes in our DAW down to the millisecond... so there is a creative choice to be had there. If this is the secret to the magic groove, why not learn about that and use it?

So there's still plenty of mystery and room for discovery regarding 'semi-random 2ms groove' imho, which is part of what this thread is for.


Another valid question is, assume this jitter pattern is actually purposeful, did it actually work out to a good thing? Purely subjectively, I would say there's a slight mismatch between the timbre of the machinedrum and the idea of a 'slightly off' rhythm. Those classic drum machines had more lo-fi, 'analog' sound- a good match with a slightly strange rhythm grid. For instance, I think tr-909's sound awesome, and I believe it has been measured that rhythmically they are not that tight- but the amount and nature of the not-tightness is a good fit with the aggressive, noisy, chunky sound of that machine.

To me, the sps has such a precise, 'digital' timbre flavour, that indeed I bought it to make precise, 'robotic' sounding beats and I think that any movement towards greater precision would in fact suit it better. It would make sense to me to have the precise modern/digital drum machine as the 'master beat' of my setup, then throw in the older quirky stuff on top, to taste. The sps has such input/output/sequencing/processing capabilities that it begs to be the centre of a studio setup, and therefore it makes sense for it to have the solidest timing of anything in the setup, if possible.

Just my opinion though.