Elektron-Users

innerclock wrote:
As my rig got 'tighter' [not rigid] just tighter - I started getting rid of things that were not keeping the grade - MAQ16, Mobius etc


How can a CV/Gate sequencer exhibit slop? Thanks.

Black-Man wrote:

innerclock wrote:
As my rig got 'tighter' [not rigid] just tighter - I started getting rid of things that were not keeping the grade - MAQ16, Mobius etc


How can a CV/Gate sequencer exhibit slop? Thanks.

Easy - the stability of any sequencer (CV/Gate/Midi/Din) is only as good as the clock driving it and how the design deals with processor/CPU interrupts as far as the tempo/clocking/step goes. Some are better than others. In the case of the Mobius which can be self driven under its own tempo clock - do the test and see how tight the steps are relative to each other. Now clock it from a stable external Midi Clock master and do the tests again - might be better, might be worse - dependant on design philosophy. Some new sequencers do OK under self sync but lose the plot when you run them slaved to even the best Midi Clock input?

Why is that you may ask?

Again - poor design basically. Instead of making sure external Midi Clock gets a hot-line direct to the sequencer clocking circuit - a badly written OS running on a single IC that looks after the whole operation means even the tightest external sync gets stuck in bad city traffic on the way to the running the sequencer properly.

Red Light, Green Light. Stop. Start etc etc.... get the picture? Our ideal non-stop clocking Pulse Train now has a bad case of the nervous jitters.

Early step CV sequencers just followed incoming Square Clock pulses - as long as that was rock solid, so was the step sequencer. Nothing got in the way of the pulse train.

As discreet/voltage design [Clocks/Timers/Latches/Gate arrays) gave way to monlithic CPU/IC shared resources for both tempo generation and step/event/serial processing - the simple, stable, uninterrupted Pulse Train Express design gradually became all stations to Sloppy Town.

The sequencer output type CV/Gate/Midi/Din - makes no difference. Tempo clock origin and handling is where it's at.

Regards -David.

Hey, I demand you guys 'shut down' this thread right now!

The moderators should shut it down because I personally don't agree with what you're saying!

Haha, jk. That's my impression of certain posts on this thread.

innerclock wrote:
[Easy - the stability of any sequencer (CV/Gate/Midi/Din) is only as good as the clock driving it and how the design deals with processor/CPU interrupts as far as the tempo/clocking/step goes. Some are better than others. In the case of the Mobius which can be self driven under its own tempo clock - do the test and see how tight the steps are relative to each other. Now clock it from a stable external Midi Clock master and do the tests again - might be better, might be worse - dependant on design philosophy. Some new sequencers do OK under self sync but lose the plot when you run them slaved to even the best Midi Clock input?


As discreet/voltage design [Clocks/Timers/Latches/Gate arrays) gave way to monlithic CPU/IC shared resources for both tempo generation and step/event/serial processing - the simple, stable, uninterrupted Pulse Train Express design gradually became all stations to Sloppy Town.

The sequencer output type CV/Gate/Midi/Din - makes no difference. Tempo clock origin and handling is where it's at.

Regards -David.

Mobius under internal sync: all it has to do is fire a fixed voltage and a gate timed to its internal clock. With modern CPU's I consider that *very* trivial and have a hard time believing its *that* bad - assuming one is just letting it run in song mode w/o realtime editing. My "feel ears" tell me its a helluva alot better than DP.


As always, thanks David.

rgmccaig wrote:
Hey, I demand you guys 'shut down' this thread right now!

The moderators should shut it down because I personally don't agree with what you're saying!

Haha, jk. That's my impression of certain posts on this thread.





Indeed. I also get the impression of "Throw your elektron products in the bin, they are broken" and "Get on elektron's back because elektron products don't work properly" from other posts.

I listen to stuff like this:

http://www.punkdisco.co.uk/Videos.htm

or these

http://www.materialobject.com/

...and I wonder what all the bickering is about. If people can write and create such great music with these products, then there really is no reason nor justification for having such a lengthy and unconstructive thread about "issues". The proof is in the pudding as they say... and it shows that there is no issue stopping anyone here from creating superb music with these products. I agree that this thread should be closed, simply because it hasn't been constructive for many many many pages. Its just a fast track to being side-tracked from making music.

Who knows what the motivation behind this thread was... but its been mentioned by certian people that elektron's claims for tight timing are wrong. By all means sticky a post at the top of the forum that says elektron products have a 2 odd ms variation... but put in a link to pieces of music like those linked above as well. Let people decide for themselves, instead of trying to persuade the world.

rrrright... :-o

DLX wrote:

rgmccaig wrote:
Hey, I demand you guys 'shut down' this thread right now!

The moderators should shut it down because I personally don't agree with what you're saying!

Haha, jk. That's my impression of certain posts on this thread.





Indeed. I also get the impression of "Throw your elektron products in the bin, they are broken" and "Get on elektron's back because elektron products don't work properly" from other posts.

I listen to stuff like this:

http://www.punkdisco.co.uk/Videos.htm

or these

http://www.materialobject.com/

...and I wonder what all the bickering is about. If people can write and create such great music with these products, then there really is no reason nor justification for having such a lengthy and unconstructive thread about "issues". The proof is in the pudding as they say... and it shows that there is no issue stopping anyone here from creating superb music with these products. I agree that this thread should be closed, simply because it hasn't been constructive for many many many pages. Its just a fast track to being side-tracked from making music.

Who knows what the motivation behind this thread was... but its been mentioned by certian people that elektron's claims for tight timing are wrong. By all means sticky a post at the top of the forum that says elektron products have a 2 odd ms variation... but put in a link to pieces of music like those linked above as well. Let people decide for themselves, instead of trying to persuade the world.

Hi DLX - I think rgmccraig was being tongue-in-cheek, maybe not but it's OK anyway.

There is really no bickering anymore; I think there was/is genuine constructive debate in this thread that is visible without looking all that hard. I have never said good music could not be made with Elektron gear ever - now or in any of the previous OS incarnations - remembering that the current Monomachine and Machine Drum; features added and bugs fixed right to this point were mostly materialised by user comment and constructive pressure from the beginning and yet the machines we have now are in many ways vastly different to the OS Version 1.00 units delivered initially.

You must agree with me when I say that these evolutionary OS changes have all been beneficial in both products and no one ever considered either unit to be incapable of making music in previous OS revisions and certainly never worthy of throwing in the bin despite whatever minor short comings they may have had.

With this in mind - the 'Proof-in-the-Pudding' comment is rather a weak point because my 'tighter timing' issue is just as valid as any other feature or bug fix requested and implemented by Elektron so far. People have always made great 'Puddings' with Elektrons from the very beginning but things can always be improved and features can always be added.

As far as 'side-tracking' the creative process goes - is it really different to any other bug/feature issue previously discussed?

As an example of what I mean - I don't really use the Arpeggio feature at all when using the Monomachine so my interest in fixing bugs found by others is of no consequence to me in my work. I don't visit threads or discussions relating to this feature and I keep making music the way I choose to.

I would expect those individuals who do use the Aprpeggio feature to keep the pressure up and work out solutions as they see fit because it is important to them. This would mean debate, argument and I am sure some heated dialogue to iron out what was really important and what direction to take.

The timing issue is not important to everybody I accept that however it is very important in my work hence my continual interest in having it resolved or at the very least acknowledged and explained if it can't be rectified.

I don't expect others to share my interest or have it disturb their creative work flow. That was never my intention.

I listened to Punk Disco and I like it very much and the Material stuff is very good also (Andre BTW is a long time associate of mine so I well appreciate and respect his technical chops and musical direction even before I listened to his work).

Pointing people to links of music created on Elektron gear and saying 'make up your own mind' doesn't really make any sense. None of the positive features added or bugs fixed to date (and lets be honest here - some of the bugs needed sorting) would ever have come to light if you constantly take this line of argument.

There is more than enough international positive publicity about how very good Elektron product is at making music - that is not in any doubt and never has been.

If someone posts an issue with Midi Machines or Arpeggio behavior - why are these considered appropriate for rational consideration by the Forum and by Elektron and yet a proven random timing fluctuation that many have also observed and heard is shot down and in some cases ridiculed as being obsessive and counter-creative?

My 'obsessive' and 'continual' posts/replies on the subject were not without rational explanation - unlike other forum topics that seemed to accept feature 'wish-lists' and bug discoveries openly - the timing thread and the findings acknowledged by myself, others and indeed by Elektron themselves generated ridicule and aggression.

I only ever sought to explain my position to the best of my ability and back up my findings when either my methods or my deeper motivation was questioned.

I accept that the MD timing is what it is.

I hope some forum members found the thread of interest anyway.

Regards David.

Hey.
I agree with david.

The timing thing is either an issue for your or it isnt.

Its not been for me so im not that fussed about it.
i read the posts and found it interesting. if a little academic for me.

anyway, is the entire point of having this forum to generate such debate and interest in the products we all use?

innerclock wrote:

With this in mind - the 'Proof-in-the-Pudding' comment is rather a weak point because my 'tighter timing' issue is just as valid as any other feature or bug fix requested and implemented by Elektron so far. People have always made great 'Puddings' with Elektrons from the very beginning but things can always be improved and features can always be added.

This is exactly why this thread should be closed. Its not going anywhere... Saying my point is weak bares little merit to me and many other people, because to many of us it is the only point worth considering. I can just as easily suggest that your point is weak because it is no more valid that any other point about a "bug" that exists in elektron gear. Take hanging midi notes on the MnM, it drives me f*&king insane... Your point is so valid that is should have ended 42 pages ago like every other thread that points out a bug.

My 'obsessive' and 'continual' posts/replies on the subject were not without rational explanation - unlike other forum topics that seemed to accept feature 'wish-lists' and bug discoveries openly - the timing thread and the findings acknowledged by myself, others and indeed by Elektron themselves generated ridicule and aggression.


No offense mate, but thats bollocks. 6 out of the 10 posts on the first page are yours. The only reason this thread has generated ridicule and aggression is because you have used almost an alarmist approach in an attempt to make this "bug" more of an issue than any other problem with elektron products. Reading some of your posts indeed almost makes out that elektron products are useless, they really do.

Indeed, the timing issue is either an issue for you or it isn't. Just like any other issue in elektron equipment. Its exactly why I said easy access should be made so that people can make up their own mind instead of people attempting to spoon feed them a train of thought. Your point was made 44 pages ago... everything since then has just undermined any point that has attempted to be made, as can been seen with the deterioration of this thread. In case you haven't noticed, this thread has been counter creative and counter productive for quite some time... you've even aided it considerably yourself.



I would expect those individuals who do use the Aprpeggio feature to keep the pressure up

This is just an obsessive and unnatural thing to say. Why would I do such a thing? I write and make music because I enjoy it. It relaxes me. It gives me a thrill to perform in front of people... If I was ever driven to a point where I was so unhappy that I considered "keeping the pressure up" I'd sell up and move else where... I'd do that for no other reason than because I do what I do because it makes me happy. No one forces me to write music, no one forces me to buy a product, no one forces me to keep a product. What do you call those kind of people? People who only focus on the positive? Perhaps they are really just people who enjoy making music more than sitting on an internet forum or riding a companies back about an issue that isn't preventing anyone from making music? Really... if it makes you so unhappy that you think such an action is necessary, then its time to throw in the towel.

DLX wrote:
Take hanging midi notes on the MnM, it drives me f*&king insane... Your point is so valid that is should have ended 42 pages ago like every other thread that points out a bug.


Come on DLX - for you - hung Midi Notes is something you obviously find a serious issue and with that sort of expletive I assume you must have gone hard to get it resolved - I would expect that in anyone with a genuine and valid point and that is a good thing my man. For me I don't use the MD or MnM for Midi at all so I couldn't give a hoot about hung notes.

I have heard what I thought were tonal/phase shifts in my MD kicks when synced up to my other gear over the years - I thought these were LFO/DSP/Pitch related but after the timing thread I know now they are random timing/step errors causing the tonal change against my bass tracks.

Now that is very important to me and Innerclock also obviously so why can't it be addressed or at least respected the same way?

Your comments about doing music to be happy and all is cool and I know where you are coming from but really man, bringing up real issues and genuine wish lists in gear we obviously all love is all about raising the bar and you can't shoot a brother for that, that just ain't fair. saying you would rather move on than get positively involved in fixing or improving some feature is just a dummy-spit and that way nothing gets improved.

Doesn't the 42 pages of dialogue at least distill down the truth, the method of measurement and the importance of the issue? If it got shit-canned at page one like you suggest(which it could very well have been if you had your way) I think a lot of us would still be in the dark about this and I would rather know than not know and that has to be worth something brother.