Elektron-Users

Has anyone had luck getting deep basses out of the A4? I am loving the synth in general but have had some difficulty getting really fat sounds out of it. For example, I like the low end on this track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osrSWtGyAG0&list=PL1AA4BFF735D7083B but I cannot persuade the A4 to go there - below about C3 the sound sems to break up significantly.

I find it much easier to get deep basses from the OT. For example I can load up a single-cycle waveform that sounds 'ordinary' but I quickly put it through the OT's filter with a low bass and width and high Q and I get massive, massive sub-bass. Actually, part of the reason I bought the A4 was that I noticed my Virus sounded so thin and weedy without any serious power in low end.

The A4 is definitely bassier but I often find that adding subs to a bass sound just gets it muddy and undefined. If working with single oscillators I like the triangle best, but when I go low the sound is much more likely to end up with that deep 'clicking' sound instead of pushing air. And when I explore the filters I am confused, especially the ladder filter, which seems quite weak compared to the state-variable. For example I turn off the oscillators and put out white noise, but when I turn filter 1 lower than about 45...no energy in the bottom end at all, regardless of the resonance or feedback. below 32 there's nothing at all. I can get something going if I turn filter 2 as a high pass and put the resonance to maximum. This is also a problem for making kick drums by high resonance with a low pass filter - I can do it but it is not very powerful. I tried Anselmi's approach of adding a little overdive and filter 1 open with resonance set to 74, this gave a little rounder oscillator sound in the lower octave, but it's not very big-sounding. The best results I have had are from using the band pass on filter 2 with maximum resonance, but it doesn't have that much presence. It seems like there is a significant DC offset in the lower octaves, with a corresponding drop in the volume. I notice that when I have a kick and a bass going on the A4 I can overload the OT's converters fairly easily, but it doesn't sound very loud. On the other hand I currently have my computer playing through the C&D inputs on the OT (listening to the tune linked above) and the bass sounds terrific at the same level, so I don't think it's a problem on the OT end.

As an experiment, I made a big sub-bass from a single-cycle wave on the Octatrack (which only took about 30 seconds from selecting the flex machine to watching my speaker cones shaking), then I sent that sub-bass from the cue outs of the OT to the inputs of the A4. The A4 cannot put the deep bass from input to the output, the gain stage gets overloaded very quickly and I just get a distorted version of the same sound - nicely distorted, but without much bass power. Of course I tried lowering the output volume of the Octatrack so as not to overload the A4 inputs, but that gave me just quiet, still not bass energy. By using the bandpass filter at maximum resonance I was able to get something more powerful, but it was amplified/filtered distortion from the gain stage, not sub-bass.

If I turn all inputs off and just play with the filters, I can turn the resonance all the way up on F2 and it self-oscillates, and it does interesting things all the way down in low-pass mode, band-pass, high-pass, or peak mode - it's a nice tasty sub sound, just not very loud...about what I'd expect from a 2-pole filter, although it seems plenty loud in the mid-range. Filter 1 on the other hand...I turn the resonance all the way up, it self-oscillates (higher than my ears can hear until about 118, with no aliasing...great), I start closing the filter... about 90-95 it starts to thing out and below 85 it dies completely. It will not self-oscillalte at a lower frequency, whether I send, signal, use feedback, or what. This is about the same as a triangle wave on G8!!

I love how the machine can scream in the hgih end and snarl and growl in the mid range, or give very rich creamy tones. In general I find the filters flexible to make a good 303 emulation or a subtle and delicate sound like an Oberheim or...but solid bass sounds are a real problem for me. Of course I can keep making bass in the OT, but I expected the A4 would be able to give my woofers some good exercise, and it doesn't. I hate to say it, but I am not impressed with the ladder filter at all; everything interesting the A4 comes from Filter 2 and I only use Filter 1 to keep the highs under control. I wish I had two of Filter 2, or better yet the OT filter.



I feel stupid, like I am missing something obvious. I really like many of the sounds that I can make with the machine and think it is full of character, each day I find new ways to use and abuse the sync, AM PWM and so on. With a little tweaking I can make it sing and sound almost human. But I can not get it to move any kind of serious air.

It shouldn't be this hard, should it? The OT has so much bass power that I feel I could easily rip my woofers in half and I exercise great caution at high Q settings. I can get a bass sound I like very quickly and move on with my life. When I had an Oberheim Matrix 6 I could get lovely deep tones out of it fairly easily. But every time I reach down to the lower registers (below around c2-c3) on the A4, I come up empty-handed. Should I just give up and write all my basslines on the OT? Because much as I like the A4, I wasn't hurting for midrange sound capability before I bought it.

could it be that this is by design, so that the A4 is less likely to e.g. blow a club PA if you're not being careful during a performance?

I would think Elektron are quite happy with the sound of the Analog Four, and making it FATTER would maybe have been a crowd pleaser, but the way it is, it's maybe more balanced? Dunno, with 4 bass-heavy monosynths in a box, maybe it would have sounded too muddy in the lower registers?

I don't have any other analog hardware, so this is a noob talking basically..
Before buying the A4, I was worried about whether I would like its "nasal" mid-frequency emphasis... but, after several jams with other people and a variety of instruments, I have not ever had the feeling there was not enough bass power from the Analog Four. In fact, I think it is balanced quite nicely to sound well, both standalone and together with a wide array of other instruments.

void wrote:
could it be that this is by design, so that the A4 is less likely to e.g. blow a club PA if you're not being careful during a performance?
Sorry, but technically that doesn't make any sense. At all.

The reason why - without some tweaking - the A4 doesn't get "that low" is because of its mishaped waveforms that tend to thin out in the low end. There has been a quite elaborate thread on this here, also with tips and tricks on how to tighten the sound using the overdrive function.

The A4 is no Moog for sure but with proper knowledge and some tweaking you can get as low as you like. e.g. use the second filter with keytracking set to 32 (chromatic) and use the peak-filter setting with moderate resonance tuned to the OSCs frequency to get a significant bass boost. You can also try to use the high pass for that. Actually its the old MS20 trick: using a resonant highpass set to a low frequency to get MOAR BASS.

The real benefit of a synth filter compared to simply using an EQ is, that the filter can be tuned chromatically to follow the keyboard. Very different approach and way more musical.

Btw. be careful though with the peak settings: too much resonance and you could easily blow your speakers.... d'oh!

1)Neighbor tracks. More filters, more envelopes to tighten up a flabby bass. You could probably tighten 1 track up with parameter locks, but I find this easier.

2) the filters put out more bass when they aren't static. Try all and layer all the different modulation options. Don't forget about using velocity that doesn't effect volume.

3) filter tracking - do you even use it?

4) the deepest basses I've made have been with filtering a boss dr5 and it's 808 samples! It sounds better to me than the real 808. I think noise and hiss on your input sound helps give the first filter something to chew on.

4a) Use a CV out sine at audio rates, run it through a noisy mixer or slight distortion and back in.

4b) Digital waveform + analog amps, filters distortion has always given me the best bass. DX100, etc.

4c) If you don't want to try 4a this technique works too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jan82yPkbLg

Ive found it usefull to turn down the volume on more medium and high frequency tracks to beable to boost the overal volume of bass tracks. . .

I think one thing that helped is for both oscillators to trigger in phase via the TRG parameter on OSC2 page 2. Or, often I only use a single oscillator. I am able to get plenty of low end out of the A4 even in relation to a Moog LP and SH101 that I own.

reset wrote:
I think one thing that helped is for both oscillators to trigger in phase via the TRG parameter on OSC2 page 2. Or, often I only use a single oscillator. I am able to get plenty of low end out of the A4 even in relation to a Moog LP and SH101 that I own.

Agreed. There's a lot of movement going on within the A4. Try the TRG parameter so the osc's are in phase. Also try turning off 'oscillator drift' in the setup menu. The PWM modulation can often affect the low end too.

Even before using filtering tricks, the A4 sounds as bassy as the Mono lancet over here when the volume is cranked up. Especially the Feedback osc. As mentioned above, try mixing the other tracks on the A4 lower so the bass track is louder. I have to do that with bass & kicks.

I preferred the multimode Filter 2 to filter 1 at first because it was more familiar, but after using it for a few months I now go straight for filter 1 for most sounds. It sounds more organic & natural.

void wrote:
could it be that this is by design, so that the A4 is less likely to e.g. blow a club PA if you're not being careful during a performance?


the behavior of the delay feedback and overdrive leads me to believe that they weren't concerned with blowing speakers when designing the A4.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's something with my unit, because I assure you it's not a misunderstanding of how filters work or failing to use tracking or any of that. I can get an enormous sub-bass tone from the OT in no time at all, one that will push my speakers into distortion as I push it lower.

The A4 simply cannot put out the same signal level, and if I run that sub-bass into the A$'s inputs and the all-analog signal path, it distorts even with the filters wide open. Also, I specifically mentioned that Filter 1 only self-oscillates near the upper end of its range. I know the OP was very long, but that's because I explained my testing process in some detail. You should not need to use neighbor tracks or tricky plock modulations just to get a steady deep tone.

Could someone else with an A4 try this: turn all the oscillators and noise level to 0, turn filter 2 resonance to 0 and set the cutoff to 0 (hipass) or 127 (lopass). Turn filter 1 to 127 and the resonance to 127. Lower the output volume a bit to protect your tweeter/ears...Start turning down filter 1 until you hear it self-oscillating. Keep turning it lower. How low can you turn it before the sound dies? Then open the filter and turn the resonance to 0 again. Turn up the white noise leve up, and start turning filter 1 down. When does the sound die?

I will record some examples from the OT and A4 for comparison. If other users are able to get Moog or SH-101 type bass out of it then I think that it might be an issue with this unit.

interesting!

filter 1 dies about 100
filter 2 goes all the way down to sub-bass